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English football quality - Remember this thread?

beachryan said:
I think you're completely right. Ronaldo was never going to be happy in England, the style of play, the fans, the weather...
But, why did he then sign a 4 year contract extension a few months ago?
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erm, because he does like playing in the premiership. How would you know? Stop just assuming things and making vast inaccurate stereotypes about the weather etc.
 
Stereotypes are annoying i agree that with you, on the other hand, they are often accurate.
English football is tactically very naïve...English teams don't seem to be able to adapt themselves to "the diving culture" of Southern European teams.
I agree with Mauras if he says that it wasn't Ronaldo who messed up but Rooney.
But let's suppose for the sake of argument that Ronaldo is a "cheating bastard" like all Portugese and Latin players (another inaccurate stereotype???). If we suppose that, the act of Rooney is even more stupid. Brittish teams have got enough lessons: Porto against Celtic, the match against Portugal at Euro 2OO4, Messi against Chelsea (which wasn't a dive at all, but the whole UK thought so) and i'm sure i forgot five or six other incidents. Conclusion: Brittish players and teams just don't seem to learn.
 
gerd said:
Stereotypes are annoying i agree that with you, on the other hand, they are often accurate.
English football is tactically very naïve...English teams don't seem to be able to adapt themselves to "the diving culture" of Southern European teams.
I agree with Mauras if he says that it wasn't Ronaldo who messed up but Rooney.
But let's suppose for the sake of argument that Ronaldo is a "cheating bastard" like all Portugese and Latin players (another inaccurate stereotype???). If we suppose that, the act of Rooney is even more stupid. Brittish teams have got enough lessons: Porto against Celtic, the match against Portugal at Euro 2OO4, Messi against Chelsea (which wasn't a dive at all, but the whole UK thought so) and i'm sure i forgot five or six other incidents. Conclusion: Brittish players and teams just don't seem to learn.
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I completely agree, but why should English teams learn to cheat? Shouldn't it be the other way around?
 
I think Gerd wasn't talking about learning to cheat but, on the contrary, learning to see things from a different angle. You prove Gerds point by labeling all the games and events he mentioned as "cheating". Messi didn't cheat, Ronaldo didn't cheat when he asked for the deserved card. The problem with english soccer mentality is the almost sick need to find scapegoats (as individual as possible) instead of sitting down and thinking wisely why the hell they are more and more surpassed by everyone else tactically, technically and productively.
 
I would have explained myself otherwise, but roughly i agree with Mauras' last post.
 
Mauras said:
I think Gerd wasn't talking about learning to cheat but, on the contrary, learning to see things from a different angle. You prove Gerds point by labeling all the games and events he mentioned as "cheating". Messi didn't cheat, Ronaldo didn't cheat when he asked for the deserved card. The problem with english soccer mentality is the almost sick need to find scapegoats (as individual as possible) instead of sitting down and thinking wisely why the hell they are more and more surpassed by everyone else tactically, technically and productively.
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SPOT ON:applause: as much i LOVE English football:) mauras has totally right about what he has said!!
 
there is a major problem Alain, that somewhat "excuses" english fans from their usual arrogant and self centered perspective: the fact that the Premier League looks as good as it gets. The mix between english clubs and the fast, attractive speed of the english games, acompanied by a great atmosphere deliver that feeling of "hey, this is the best league there is".
But then we see english clubs facing some less powerfull european sides and getting their asses kicked and we should put things under analisys.

English fans are tricked by the fact that the premier league not only mixes very well as it's probably the best marketed league in the world (eg: the weekly tv magazine sold to all europe, it's 5 stars stuff).

So when their national team, loaded with all those players that seem to be among the best when playing on weekends loose and underperform on international level as they do over and over again It's probably very confusing to the regular english soccer fan with a narrower mind.

But don't let me fool you: the premier league is also the league I prefer watching on weekends. But I know were the quality of it's teams ends and the "show" starts.
 
Maybe a litle bit exagerated, but i tend to agree.
Considering the fact that English clubs are amongst the richest in the world, in fact they are under-achieving in Europe...
But i have to say that i like Premiership football immensely.
 
Erm, underachieve in Europe? Last time I checked English clubs have been doing pretty well in UEFA, both cup and CL. Fine they haven't taken the big trophy home since, wait, last year, oh and they did have a team in the finals this year, as well as multiple teams in both of the past 2 years semis...in fact I'd argue that they've done pretty much as should be expected from a top league in Europe.

As for the learning to deal with tactical superiority etc, you're spot on. Rafa and Jose have brought some saavy, and their teams have obviously excelled in Europe. I don't actually believe Arsene had this, but maybe moving towards it. Fergie epitomised the old school UK manager, pure passion and desire, but unfortunately that's just not enough these days.

Mauras: I know you're still elated about the Portugal victory, but seriously, the English players/teams are nearly as bad as you'd like to believe. They're not nearly as good as the tabloids in England want to believe either, but somewhere in between.
 
beachryan said:
Erm, underachieve in Europe? Last time I checked English clubs have been doing pretty well in UEFA, both cup and CL. Fine they haven't taken the big trophy home since, wait, last year, oh and they did have a team in the finals this year, as well as multiple teams in both of the past 2 years semis...in fact I'd argue that they've done pretty much as should be expected from a top league in Europe.
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Considering the fact that English football clubs like Man Utd, Arsenal, Chelsea and Liverpool are among the top 20 of the richest sports clubs (not only football), they are underachieving...hell English club should win each and every year those big cups...
What we need is a fair system were the television rights are fairly divided between "all" clubs. Of course not literally all...we need a European super league with big clubs from all countries. With open accounting, an equal division of the TV and sponsor money, salary cap and a draf system (in short the equivalent of the NBA). If English clubs would still achieve "as much" as know then they would not underachieve...Give French, Portugese, Danish, Dutch, German or Belgian clubs as much money as the average English club and they will have at least the same results...
It is not normal that a player like Wilhelmsson who has played CL football with Anderlecht for the last two or three years wants to leave Anderlecht for clubs like Nantes or Toulouse...
 
A salary cap would be seriously difficult, as you're right it would have to be implemented throughout Europe. But, it would certainly make things more interesting, as in US sports when its very difficult to know which teams will win each year. I like the draft system too, though on the scale and spread of football it might be a bit too difficult.
 
The spaniards underachieve with such a 'fantastic' league. Nobody mentions them.

And Spanish club success in Europe is pretty equal with England atm.

England have NEVER got their 'arse kicked'

apart from the denmark game, which was strange to say the least. At you have to realise the tension surronding home nation matches, like Northern Ireland. Its not simply a stroll in the park, its a derby.

I think the main problem is, the style of play in the English league is totally different to international football. Just watch a premiership game this season, and compare it to the world cup matches. See how lenient the refs are, watch how many crunching and usually fair tackles are made. Get a stopwatch and see how long it takes to get from one box to the other.

Other than that, the youth setup in England is terrible. Only the greatest get through it.
 
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Just saw the Man City x Portsmouth highlights.

Ben "Cunt" Thatcher tried to Kill Pedro Mendes... and gets a yellow card. Jesus fuckin Christ.

The EPL is probably the only league where that can be a yellow, because it's "tough, hard, competitive, yada yada yada". Give me diving anyday, at least nobody needs oxygen afterwards...
 
I agree that it should have been a red, no doubt. The ref made a very bad choice, but many other Prem refs would have sent him off. He will get a ban after a review from the FA panel. Every time I see the elbow it makes me more pissed of at Thatcher, he had an similar incident in 2000/01 so this isnt the first.
 
airjoca said:
Just saw the Man City x Portsmouth highlights.

Ben "Cunt" Thatcher tried to Kill Pedro Mendes... and gets a yellow card. Jesus fuckin Christ.

The EPL is probably the only league where that can be a yellow, because it's "tough, hard, competitive, yada yada yada". Give me diving anyday, at least nobody needs oxygen afterwards...
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erm that argument is a little harsh to be honest. Every player on the pitch knew that was a red card. The ref made a mistake. He (Thatcher) might now face police prosecution because of complaints from fans near the touchline.
 
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The "portuguese cheating bastards" are taking the punishment.

This video shows that the stepovers and dives of Cristiano Ronaldo are soccer's main issue, not this "agressive" ways of playing quality soccer practiced in the northern lands...

Sorry for the irony and sarcasm but for someone who coming here has to put with the distorcive way the lads from UK talk about latin players and make cheating look worse than this crap (this is just an example, there are loads of them in england, and some become icons like Roy Keane) sometimes we cannot hold it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2ulYWND2Yg
 
Thatcher = isloated incident. It was terrible, he'll be properly punished. In case you didn't notice, there's no one defending him. English or otherwise. Diving, cheating, being general pansies = every 2 minutes in some leagues

BTW Roy Keane was both a hard a$$ and one of the best midfielders on earth, ever, so go ahead and discredit him if you'd like. I understand how you wouldn't see his skill as he didn't know the meaning of the word dive.
 
Mauras said:
The "portuguese cheating bastards" are taking the punishment.

This video shows that the stepovers and dives of Cristiano Ronaldo are soccer's main issue, not this "agressive" ways of playing quality soccer practiced in the northern lands...

Sorry for the irony and sarcasm but for someone who coming here has to put with the distorcive way the lads from UK talk about latin players and make cheating look worse than this crap (this is just an example, there are loads of them in england, and some become icons like Roy Keane) sometimes we cannot hold it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2ulYWND2Yg
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What a load of bollocks. The foul play seen in Cristiano Ronaldo can be seen all over Portugal and the worst thing is that Portugese fans still refuse to admit this.
What YOU just pointed out there was (as beachryan said) an isolated incident. You dont always see that in the UK and the fact that you dont see players with that kind of reputation in the English national side proves this. Unlike in Portugal, we would name and shame players like Thatcher cuz we also dont like seeing it.

PS. Thinking Roy Keane became an icon for that kind of play just shows your level of intelligence. So stop trying to have cheap shots at English football cuz you're just being extremely biased.
 
Thatcher is a twat and should have been sent off, I don't know what he was thinking. No one in this country, pundits or otherwise believes what he did was right. That kind of thing isn't part of the English game, it was a one off. Diving in Protugal, Spain and Italy takes the piss though, you'll find it very hard to find a match that doesn't involve frequent diving.
 
Mauras said:
The "portuguese cheating bastards" are taking the punishment.

This video shows that the stepovers and dives of Cristiano Ronaldo are soccer's main issue, not this "agressive" ways of playing quality soccer practiced in the northern lands...

Sorry for the irony and sarcasm but for someone who coming here has to put with the distorcive way the lads from UK talk about latin players and make cheating look worse than this crap (this is just an example, there are loads of them in england, and some become icons like Roy Keane) sometimes we cannot hold it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2ulYWND2Yg
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OMG your a fool, diving is ruining the game, not this isolated incident.. dude your way off on this one, your too arrogant to realize it
 
So ben tatcher is an isolated incident?

And what about rooney's run on Carvalho's balls? Is that OK? And rooney's agression on Porto's Pepe in amsterdam friendly that got him the punishment? and Keane's stepping on Baia in Antas?

That's what pisses me off in brit soccer fans, making diving something serious (which I agree) but constantly seeing these shameless incidents as less important when they are actually MORE important! I wished Ben Tacher dived 1.000 times in his career instead of doing what he did, he could have killed Mendes.

What a fool's mentality mates.
 
Mauras said:
So ben tatcher is an isolated incident?

And what about rooney's run on Carvalho's balls? Is that OK? And rooney's agression on Porto's Pepe in amsterdam friendly that got him the punishment? and Keane's stepping on Baia in Antas?

That's what pisses me off in brit soccer fans, making diving something serious (which I agree) but constantly seeing these shameless incidents as less important when they are actually MORE important! I wished Ben Tacher dived 1.000 times in his career instead of doing what he did, he could have killed Mendes.

What a fool's mentality mates.
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Oh yes, that SAVAGE elbow from Rooney in Amsterdam. And by elbow you mean hand. And by savage you mean lighter than 99% of what happens on every corner in every league. Please, Pepe's a pussy who rolled as if he'd lost an eye, Rooney gets the red, he sits up IMMEDIATELY smiles, gets on his feet and thinks, hey job done. Trust me mate, if you put your mind to it you could find just as dirty incidents in the portugese league, but its clear to anyone that reads your posts that you're just being a devils advocate, and don't want to listen to what anyone else says. Which makes me wonder why I just bothered...
 
Like always Mauras is exagerating, but i tend to agree with him on some things.
One of the reasons why the English national team is underachieving is that they play too physical and can't cope with the "cheating" of Portugese, Italian and other Southern European teams.
I've stated this often: English teams don't learn from their mistakes...how often did they were outraged after bad results "because of the cheating" after matches against Portugese teams these last years: Celtic against Porto, Man United against Porto, the English national team twice against Portugal...every single time they felt cheated (which in my eyes is bullshit, but for the sake of argument let's presume that all those matches were lost because of cheating). The point is that English teams are either too stupid or too arrogant to change something in the way they play against those teams..considering what happened before against Portugese teams Rooney's action in the last WC is that of an extremely unintelligent player...of course if a foreigner states this (and certainly Belgian, country with an extremely unsuccesful national side and clubs) you feel offended (fact is that i love English football). But maybe you guys should read the Four Four Two issue about the World Cup where the coach of England's rugby team makes the same evaluation...
 
airjoca said:
A very interesting article for those who call us cheats:

http://www.sirlin.net/Features/feature_PlayToWinPart1.htm

It's about playing to win on street fighter, but can be applied to anything, including pro evo or indeed, real football.
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I think the key difference between the point of that article and football is that in theory there are referees on the pitch to stop players exploiting the 'bugs'.

But I do agree the English national side need to have a strategy to play against teams that try to wind them up by feigning injury/diving/just being a bit wincy. And one other than giving them something to roll around about.

My question to you is simple: when you play SF2, would you rather use throw over and over again, round after round, winning away, and if you would, do you really think anyone woudl pay to see it?
 
SF2 and Football are obviously different. On Live, playing SF2, i will do anything to win.

In real life football, well, would you rather have your team playing spectacular football or winning titles?

Sure, there's Barcelona playing to win and playing absolutely beatifull. And then there's Chelsea, usualy playing for results. Sure, it's not as great as Barcelona, but their fans surely dont complain.

Greece played to win, and their fans only remember the trophy, not the displays...
 
Stan said:
Like always Mauras is exagerating, but i tend to agree with him on some things.
One of the reasons why the English national team is underachieving is that they play too physical and can't cope with the "cheating" of Portugese, Italian and other Southern European teams.
I've stated this often: English teams don't learn from their mistakes...how often did they were outraged after bad results "because of the cheating" after matches against Portugese teams these last years: Celtic against Porto, Man United against Porto, the English national team twice against Portugal...every single time they felt cheated (which in my eyes is bullshit, but for the sake of argument let's presume that all those matches were lost because of cheating). The point is that English teams are either too stupid or too arrogant to change something in the way they play against those teams..considering what happened before against Portugese teams Rooney's action in the last WC is that of an extremely unintelligent player...of course if a foreigner states this (and certainly Belgian, country with an extremely unsuccesful national side and clubs) you feel offended (fact is that i love English football). But maybe you guys should read the Four Four Two issue about the World Cup where the coach of England's rugby team makes the same evaluation...
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great, exacly what I think about english soccer.
I hate diving. I foamed from my mouth everytime Ronaldo dived in the WC.
But the thing is that the english fans exagerate on the quantity, influence and negative weight of "cheating". On the other hand I see english lads reacting to "cheating" in a much more violent way than they react to murder-like actions by ben tatcher or roney on carvalho on the WC.

It beats me.
 
Mauras said:
great, exacly what I think about english soccer.
I hate diving. I foamed from my mouth everytime Ronaldo dived in the WC.
But the thing is that the english fans exagerate on the quantity, influence and negative weight of "cheating". On the other hand I see english lads reacting to "cheating" in a much more violent way than they react to murder-like actions by ben tatcher or roney on carvalho on the WC.

It beats me.
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I agree. Its probably more to do with the supporters getting frustrated to seeing the team lose to a player diving to win a penalty which costs them the game. I just hope people boo and jeer Ben thatcher every game and make death threats like they do with Ronaldo. Personally I didnt see a big deal in Ronaldos actions in the WC. I feel the english supporters overreacted to that incident. But I have to say your unfair in your judgement with the rooney incident. I dont think there was any malice on rooneys behalf to stamp on carvalho on purpose.
 
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